If your view is merely that there is a "camp" of experts that disagrees, then sure, but in that case, I do not think it is honest to frame this as a choice between believing in the authority of a single expert from that camp, vs. the (lack of) authority of me, a non-expert.

(I also think your read of the evidence is wrong, but I won't restate the arguments in my article.)

Also, I didn't say anything about the evidence (I don't have a "read" on the evidence, because I don't read Alz literature). My point is entirely that my priors indicate that Derek is a more reliable reader than you.

>I don't have a "read" on the evidence, because I don't read Alz literature

these two sentences seem contradictory to me. i am not sure how you would keep up on the research (to know it's moved from majority-held to minority-held view), and know that the move is not reflected in the literature, without reading the literature.

The raw literature for alzheimer's, as well as biomed in general, is not really easily interpretable. It's rife with errors, misleading statements, and intentional obfuscation.

Why do you continue to frame this as a choice between a single cherry-picked expert's opinion, and my own non-expert opinion? Either fairly represent the spectrum of experts' views, or decide based on the actual evidence and arguments.

I've seen this happen before, btw- overturning establishment paradigms, especially ones where the underlying etiology is complex- is extremely hard and often takes decades of experimental results.

Arguing from authority really only takes you so far when it ends up as an appeal to your personal experience. I'd rather you either address the arguments directly, or drop the dubious appeal to authority.

It’s poor science to make an argument on authority, if you know the science then you should be quoting the published research and not relying on others so called expertise.

One thing that has gone mostly unsaid in this thread is that scientists lie when they publish. Not every scientist, and not every publication, but significant fraction of papers contain true errors or omissions intentionally added by the paper authors. Learning how to read a paper and translate the bullshit takes some time, and usually requires a fairly deep understanding of the state of the art of the field.

I don't think you're obliged to discredit any argument made from authority (we're not making true logical arguments here, we're working in a real world space with ambiguouity).

Then the next question becomes 'which expert to trust'? which is a subjective judgement; personally, after polling many different experts, the "go look for other causes of alzheimer's" experts seemed to have the most compelling biological narrative.

https://stanforddaily.com/2023/12/31/blockbuster-alzheimers-...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

The strength of the amyloid hypothesis is that it is currently the only way to unify early onset AD that is caused by mutations in APP and presenilin with the pathology of both early and late set AD.

The weakness is that experimental mice expressing mutated APP do not get neurodegeneration, despite showing amyloid accumulation and behavioral defects.

Mice expressing mutated presenilin in contrast do get both behavioral defects and neurodegeneration, despite showing no accumulation of amyloid.

"Perhaps mice are different" is the usual response/excuse.

This defense is considerably weaker now, given the very modest benefits of removing amyloid from the human brain, as shown in recent clinical trials.

So.... when considered rigorously, the amyloid hypothesis remains to be proven.

However, it will always have its supporters until there is an alternate explation for the convergence of mutations in APP and presenilin on precisely that region of APP that generates amyloid.

Causal intervention on amyloid+tau mice is consistent with causal mediation from longitudinal human neuroimaging data: the amyloid pathology greatly accelerates tau pathology, and then this causes neurodegeneration.

One may then ask, what is being remedied in the many, many, studies that claim to successfully target amyloid toxicity in mice? And is this relevant to the processes that occur in AD?

Human pathology studies are limited in ability to determine causal agents because they are primarily observational, i.e. they find correlations, show that changes in certain other proteins or processes are associated, such as tau that you mention, inflammation, etc. Or as you mention, show that the pathological hallmarks of AD have a stereotypical order of appearance.

However, the only human studies that can demonstrate cause in AD are genetic studies.

One may then ask, what is being remedied in the many, many, studies that claim to successfully target amyloid toxicity in mice? And is this relevant to the processes that occur in AD?

I don't think studies rescuing cognitive deficits in amyloid-only mice are convincing evidence for the amyloid hypothesis, precisely because we know amyloid is not the proximate cause of neurodegeneration in actual Alzheimer's disease, and that proximate cause does not exist in those mice.

In other words, these mice are not faithful recapitulations of the full disease. They have their amyloid production turned up so far that their amyloid pathology seems to cause cognitive deficits, but that's not what's happening in humans. They are, at best, a good vehicle for testing specific narrow hypotheses about amyloid production and clearance. The field has largely moved on from amyloid-only mice as a direct predictor of clinical efficacy, and that was the right call.

Human pathology studies are limited in ability to determine causal agents because they are primarily observational, i.e. they find correlations, show that changes in certain other proteins or processes are associated, such as tau that you mention, inflammation, etc. Or as you mention, show that the pathological hallmarks of AD have a stereotypical order of appearance.

Here is some data in living humans, besides genetics, that has relevance to causation, in my opinion:

- The location and severity of amyloid pathology is a poor spatiotemporal match to the sites of neuronal volume loss, and to the severity and nature of clinical deficits. However, the location and severity of tau pathology is a very good match to both of these things. Of course, since these observations are correlational in nature, they don't absolutely prove a specific causal theory. But they do rule out, for example, the idea that amyloid is proximately connected (by which I mean nearby somewhere in the causal graph) to the process of neurodegeneration, whereas tau seems to be very proximately connected. From this observation alone tau could be downstream or sidestream rather than upstream, but it does then suggest that whatever causes tau pathology is itself upstream of neurodegeneration, since correlations always have a cause (the correct statement that "correlation ≠ causation" simply means "correlation between A and B does not imply that A causes B", but the explanation must be either A causes B, B causes A, or C causes both A and B).

- Anti-amyloid antibodies which remove plaque in humans cause downstream reductions in tau pathology in humans, and, separately, have clinical benefits in those humans.

- The spatiotemporal progression of amyloid and tau pathology is highly consistent with the hypothesis that amyloid pathology greatly worsens the tau pathology, but not vice versa. And there's not an alternative explanation I've come across for this fact than that amyloid pathology worsens tau pathology.

All of the above facts are generally true in combined amyloid+tau mouse models as well as in vitro human cell studies, which is some reason to believe these are closer to faithfully recapitulating the disease than the amyloid-only models. Once we believe that, we can then do more causal interventions on those models which we couldn't do in humans, and learn more about causality. For example, we know that intentionally worsening amyloid pathology in amyloid+tau mouse models also causes tau pathology and neurodegeneration to worsen in mouse models. And because these models look closer to the full disease than the amyloid-only models, this is at least relevant causal evidence, though we always have to be open to the possibility that the disease models are still missing some important elements.

I'm not aware of an alternative hypothesis to the (ATN) amyloid → tau → neurodegeneration model which synthesizes all of the above facts, along with the genetic evidence for amyloid's causal role which you referred to. By contrast, I'm not aware of any evidence inconsistent with the ATN model.

So, taking the amyloid hypothesis itself (putting presenilin aside for the time being).

We know that mutations in APP do cause AD. How? And if amyloid is not the "proximate" cause of AD, how do mutations in APP cause AD? Include in this Down syndrome, where >90% of cases develop early onset AD by age 50. They have an extra copy of APP that is not mutated.

Furthermore, people can accumulate large amounts of amyloid in the brain without having any notable dementia.

Adding tau to the equation does not help much in explaining how APP mutations cause AD. All people have tau. Furthermore, mutations in tau do not cause AD, they cause different neurodegenerative diseases (e.g. frontotemporal dementia).

Combining APP mutations with presenilin mutation and/or tau mutations in mice does lead to worse outcomes, but the same could be said for combining any other random set of neurodegeneration-associated gene mutations.

I agree that the specific molecular mechanism(s) is/are currently unknown. I've seen a number of proposals, but to my knowledge there isn't smoking-gun evidence for any one of them. But there can be causal evidence that A causes B (such as which I list) which exceeds a mere sequence of "A first, then B", and without knowing the specific mechanisms by which A causes B.

We know that mutations in APP do cause AD. How? And if amyloid is not the "proximate" cause of AD, how do mutations in APP cause AD? Include in this Down syndrome, where >90% of cases develop early onset AD by age 50. They have an extra copy of APP that is not mutated.

A bit confused by these questions, and I suspect the confusion may have to do with the term "proximate". By "amyloid is not the proximate cause of neurodegeneration", I simply mean it is upstream, mediated by another cause (namely tau). I think that clarification answers these questions.

Furthermore, people can accumulate large amounts of amyloid in the brain without having any notable dementia.

As predicted by the ATN model, at least for some time. But there is a threshold of amyloid pathology that does seem to guarantee progression to tau pathology and dementia.

Adding tau to the equation does not help much in explaining how APP mutations cause AD. All people have tau. Furthermore, mutations in tau do not cause AD, they cause different neurodegenerative diseases (e.g. frontotemporal dementia).

Sure, there are different tauopathies, each with a characteristic fold. All people have tau, but there's a specific AD tau fold emerging apparently from the locus coeruleus, then spreading to the hippocampus and entorhinal cortex, and it's this that seems heavily accelerated by the presence of amyloid pathology in humans. (By the way, a notable fact is that autosomal-dominant AD -- clearly caused by APP/PSEN1/PSEN2 mutations affecting amyloid production -- has the same tau fold as sporadic AD, even though the large majority of other tauopathies do not.)

Combining APP mutations with presenilin mutation and/or tau mutations in mice does lead to worse outcomes, but the same could be said for combining any other random set of neurodegeneration-associated gene mutations.

Note I didn't just say it "leads to worse outcomes". It's specifically that amyloid pathology worsens tau pathology, and then neurodegeneration occurs colocated with the tau pathology. This cannot be said for other random sets of mutations, in general.

(By the way, basically all of these points are discussed in the article I wrote which got linked above. You're under no obligation to read it but it might save us some time.)

Note that not all AD-causing mutations in APP also cause amyloid accumulation, for example APP-Osaka (loss of APP residue E693) results in familial AD without any accumulation of amyloid [0]. (One can ignore claims that this mutation increases Abeta oligomers, since the evidence is that Abeta oligomers are found at far too low concentrations in the human brain. They would have to be more toxic than ricin if they were etiological for AD). The oligomers seen on gels are an artefact, see the controversy surrounding Tessier-Lavigne).

As you state, and I agree, APP is upstream of tau in natural AD pathogenesis, but does not cause neurodegeneration in mice. So we still don't know from direct experimentation how APP leads to tauopathy and neuodegeneration. The evidence that this is through Abeta per se is tentative at best.

[0] A Second Pedigree with Amyloid-less Familial Alzheimer’s Disease Harboring an Identical Mutation in the Amyloid Precursor Protein Gene (E693delta) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25743013/

This is interestingly similar to the Arctic Mutation, and in the same codon no less: no plaque, but still autosomal-dominant AD due to an APP mutation. I had previously taken the Arctic Mutation to be evidence that it's not plaque per se, put more likely protofibrils (which are components of plaques in normal AD, and still present under the Arctic Mutation) or precursor aggregates which are pathogenic. The fact that the Osaka Mutation blocks protofibril formation underlines the uncertainty, that you and I agree exists, on the detailed molecular mechanisms. I would be inclined to point then to oligomers, but you say the oligomers are found at far too low concentrations to be relevant — what's your source for this?

As you state, and I agree, APP is upstream of tau in natural AD pathogenesis, but does not cause neurodegeneration in mice. So we still don't know from direct experimentation how APP leads to tauopathy and neuodegeneration. The evidence that this is through Abeta per se is tentative at best.

Not only APP, but also PS1+PS2 mutations of course, can cause ADAD, and the relevant mutations all seem to cause more Abeta42 production. In the sporadic case, production usually seems unchanged, but clearance is usually impaired (especially with ApoE4). What they all seem to have in common is amyloid production or clearance. I'm curious if you know of another pathway they have in common besides this. Otherwise it's hard to see what the alternative hypothesis is, which could explain the etiology of seemingly highly-similar disease trajectories (ADAD + sporadic AD).

I’ll add as an addendum: APP mutations do cause neurodegeneration in mice, if those mice are combined amyloid+tau models. This seems most faithful to the human disease.

As you have demonstrated an interest in this topic, but are not an active researcher, I suggest that you become familiar with Alzforum [www.alzforum.org]. It provides reputable summaries and comments from leading researchers on topical issues and papers in Alzheimer's and related neurodegenerative diseases.

They're still fairly technical, but not as dense as the original papers. Here is an example related to our discussion: https://www.alzforum.org/news/research-news/app-c-terminal-f...

I actually read your article some time ago, having found it via SSC. One comment I would make is that the pathology and genetics of AD implicate APP without much doubt. In the field, there isn't much argument against it, even by those who work on tau. Divergences in opinion more often focus on which is the better target for drug therapy.

For example, Derek Lowe's articles on AD do not argue against an APP-tau-neurodegeneration pathway (I am a regular reader of his blog), but argue that targeting amyloid is unlikely to work as a drug therapy. This argument is sometimes extended by Lowe and others to questioning whether Aβ per se is the agent that triggers the downstream effects of either mutating APP or otherwise disrupting its biology. It is possible that Aβ is a by-product of the "true" APP-triggered pathway, see the arguments in favor of C-terminal fragments I linked to earlier.

A fundamental problem the field faces is that it is difficult to experimentally induce actual AD in animals, and so it is difficult to scientifically test hypotheses as to what might cause it. Compare perhaps to something like diabetes. Exactly why mice do not develop realistic AD is unknown.

In addition, there have been literally hundreds of publications (minimum 300) claiming to reverse "Alzheimer's disease" in mice, and the only ones that have lead to any kind of meager success are those using the antibodies. The arguments made in the 2010 review below by Zahs and Ashe [0] remain mostly true sixteen years later.

The recent clinical trials, e.g. Lecanemab, are of interest not only because they might provide at least some benefit, but also because they might represent the first actual scientific experiments showing that removing Aβ can ameliorate the disease, even if only slightly because of the late stage at which they have so far been tested.

Currently ongoing trials using anti-Aβ antibodies and targeting earlier phases of the disease in those with inherited mutations are of keen interest. If these demonstrate clear prevention of disease progression, then the Aβ hypothesis can be considered tested and proven. If not, then the Aβ hypothesis should be abandoned. This would however still not disprove an APP-focused hypothesis.

[0] 'Too much good news' - are Alzheimer mouse models trying to tell us how to prevent, not cure, Alzheimer's disease? https://alzped.nia.nih.gov/sites/default/files/2022-09/zahs....

This is why researchers now most often use the 5XFAD mouse, which has APP with three mutations, and presenilin with two mutations (hence 5 FAD mutations) [0]. Note however that mutated presenilin alone is enough to cause neurodegeneration in mice, such mice however do not accumulate amyloid, which is why mutated APP in added to make the pathology more "realistic".

As to Aβ42, there are mutations in APP which cause familial AD, but produce exclusively Aβ40, e.g. APP A673V [1]. Note also that most studies report alterations in the ratio of Aβ42 to Aβ40, precisely because effects on the levels of Aβ production are inconsistent across APP mutations.

Nevertheless..... and despite my obvious skepticism towards the amyloid toxicity hypothesis, the mutations in APP that cause AD all cluster in or near the region of the protein that is Aβ. There must be a reason for that. It is also in contrast to presenilin, where the mutations are distributed throughout the molecule, indication a loss of presenilin function causes AD.

One alternate explanation to Aβ or oligomer toxicity is proposed toxicity of the immediate precursor to Aβ, i.e. the APP C-terminal fragment (CTF), see for example the recent paper below and references therein [2].

[0] https://www.alzforum.org/research-models/5xfad-b6sjl

[1] A Recessive Mutation in the APP Gene with Dominant-Negative Effect on Amyloidogenesis https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2728497/

[2] APP β-CTF triggers cell-autonomous synaptic toxicity independent of Aβ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12017768/

When the first drugs targeting HIV arrived the results were undeniable. Yes the drugs sucked for various reasons and yes HIV would evolve resistance. But the data demonstrated a very clear link that these drugs suppressed HIV and suppressing HIV made people live longer. Or consider mRNA and COVID, a great success story where the technology was put to good use and the results are obvious.

On the flip side we have certain cancers like certain breast cancers, melanoma, etc that never had a "wow" moment where some miracle turned them from highly fatal into treatable but we have seen decade after decade treatments improve and survival rates march ever upward such that what were once almost guaranteed death sentences are now often very treatable.

These are two disease treatment models worth keeping in mind. Sometimes major leaps are made. Sometimes progress is slow.

Now if we consider amyloid beta therapies: we have treatments that target amyloid beta with varying degrees of success but at least some show definite reductions in amyloid beta plaques. To the best of my knowledge that has not shown to improve outcomes in Alzheimer's patients to any meaningful degree.

That concerns me and I think justifies some skepticism of the amyloid hypothesis. The data is messy but if amyloid beta were a symptom not a cause that could certainly fit the results we are seeing. That doesn't mean the amyloid beta hypothesis is wrong but I think skepticism of the "state of the art" in the field is warranted given the pathetically ineffective progress made to date.

This is false. They slow down disease progression by about 30%, as measured by cognitive outcomes. This is discussed in the article.

Our immune systems are complicated, much more so than airplanes and bombs. The amyloid deposits are very likely part of an immune response, and although in principle immune responses going wild are horrible and can be fixed, it is very important to work on identifying and addressing the causal factors of this disease. There have been more therapies tested on the amyloid hypothesis that mere statistical fluctuations could explain away. I don't always agree with Derek, but I'm with him on this one. New ideas are urgently needed here, or this horrible disease will be an increasingly common end state for our aging populations.

As for the possibility that the successes of amyloid therapies might be explicable by chance, this is highly implausible. Only three (aducanumab, lecanemab, and donanemab) of a dozen or more amyloid therapies successfully cleared plaque, and it is precisely those three that achieved a slowdown of cognitive decline in phase 3 trials (with aducanumab succeeding in only one of its two, but with the others succeeding in their only phase 3), several of which with p-values below 0.001. This is not p-hacking or reporting bias.

You're thinking of aducanumab. Lecanemab and donanemab have been in widespread use for several years now, and open-label extensions vs. external controls showing increasing benefits over longer treatment durations.

Cease, yes, if the cause is removed early enough. But if you intervene too late (once symptoms are detectable), then the downstream tau pathology, which is what directly kills neurons, likely spreads on its own via a prion-like mechanism.

So far, no clinical trial has completed prior to clinical onset for an antibody which actually removes plaque. This is probably the main reason only 30% slowdown has been achieved so far. The donanemab prevention trial is due to complete next year. That will be an important one to watch.

Brush and floss bruddahs.

Perhaps I am just not well-informed but 30% slowdown in progression translates to sufferers have some mild improvement in cognitive tests and live a few months longer.

Maybe it is simply too early to tell but I would naively expect something much more significant. Perhaps this is the sort of thing that requires much earlier treatment to demonstrate better results.

I'm not saying amyloid beta research should be terminated. Merely that everyone in the field should be willing to entertain other ideas.

A few years longer. It's obviously frustratingly far from where we'd like to be. It was only a direct response to the claim that Alzheimer treatment isn't even in the "sometimes progress is slow" category, but rather in the "no meaningful benefit at all" category.

I'm not saying amyloid beta research should be terminated. Merely that everyone in the field should be willing to entertain other ideas.

We agree that people should be willing to entertain other ideas! I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.

I agree that I don't have the qualifications to check whether, for example, a particular cryo-EM study was conducted properly. But I can check whether those who do have such qualifications disagree on the methodology or findings of that particular study. There's a lively debate within the Alzheimer's research community; it's not hard to find dissenting opinions on just about anything, and I actively seek them out, and when such disagreement exists, I avoid weighting any evidence too heavily, unless the disagreement is about broader matters of synthesis or specific statistical or methodological questions in which my non-biological scientific background permits me to reach my own conclusions.

I am also careful not to heavily weight a single assumption-laden preclinical study conducted by a single lab, for example, but instead to look for "smoking gun"-style evidence, in those few cases that it exists, or to look at the bulk of evidence across many studies from many labs, where the specific conclusions do not seem to be seriously in doubt by experts. In general, I've been skeptical, considering alternative explanations wherever it seemed crucial to the bigger picture, and avoiding trusting anything that seemed like it involved knowledge which was heavily in the weeds on stuff that I couldn't understand. I had a personal motivation to understand the genuine truth here, and enough scientific background that I usually know when I'm out of my depth on a specific matter.

I think it's reasonable of you to say: that all sounds well and good, but I just don't know your process well enough to trust it, and you don't have formal qualifications on the matter, so I'll ignore what you say. I certainly wouldn't expect you to take anything on my authority. I see my article essentially as an act of science journalism, and scientific journalists often lack formal training in the field they report on. You can read it and see if the reasoning makes sense and the evidence is convincing, or you can reasonably ignore it and fall back on expert opinions.

I did the investigation precisely because the majority expert viewpoint was being called into question by a lot of non-experts, and I had a personal motivation to find out, genuinely, whether this critique was warranted. If you don't have that motivation, then it's probably not worth your time to do the same. I did, and I came away satisfied.

Is putting your thumb on the scale against Lowe. When a few replies down from here some commenters have provided an article demonstrating the exact fraudulent science in favor of what Lowe is saying.[0] It seems you may very well be disrupting it because he has a minority opinion. So you’ve possibly spent 6 months understanding an incorrect and fraud supported thesis. That seems like an outsider trying to disrupt it by using their “Google/SpaceX” creds to claim authority on the work of insiders.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48544407

2. I would never want anyone to believe what I say because of "Google/SpaceX creds" (I didn't even write that line, Scott added it, and only to provide a brief biography and acknowledge that I do not work in the field, not to lend an air of authority to my words).

3. There's no need to cite the fraud to me, since I already discuss it in my article. You are welcome to read that article and form your own opinion about the arguments therein.

I'll add to this: the referenced trial occurred over 8 weeks, so even if we stipulate that the improvements in cognition (which are dubious, as tgv points out in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48347906) are due to treatment rather than some other effect, we don't know that the effect is disease-modifying as opposed to symptomatic. As with acetylcholinesterase inhibitors, it may just be having a cognition-enhancing effect which, nevertheless, does not alter the underlying disease trajectory (i.e. just shifting the declining trajectory up vertically by a constant amount), and might revert shortly after discontinuing use of the drug.

A controlled trial, over a much longer duration, and ideally with a wash-out period, would be necessary to identify a disease-modifying effect.

Anyway: It's because on the Mercator projection, it is a small point in the bottom right that easily gets overlooked or accidently cropped out.

I, also a non-expert, spent six months studying what the experts are doing, concluded that they actually seem to know what they’re talking about, and shared my understanding of that with other non-experts.

If you’re going to dismiss me for saying the experts are right, since I’m not an expert, then shouldn’t you dismiss those who spent far less time than I to learn about the subject, who are saying the experts are wrong?

(That said, their numbers are much realer than that.)

It was the Lisa system software that was mostly implemented in Pascal and some blamed this for its largeness and its performance. Compilers and linkers weren’t great back then; most compiler code generation was pretty rigid, and most linkers didn’t even coalesce identical string literals across compilation unit boundaries!

Lisa Workshop C introduced the “pascal” keyword for function declarations and definitions to indicate they used Pascal calling conventions, and otherwise followed Lisa Pascal structure layout rules, so as to minimize the overhead of interoperating with the OS. (I’m not sure whether it introduced the “\p” Pascal string literal convention too or if that came later with Stanford or THINK Lightspeed C.)

In the workstation world, most companies used C and not Pascal. Apollo was different in that regard as their operating system, Domain, was unique to themselves, while most of the other workstation companies (Sun, HP, DEC, and IBM) were using Unix variants of some time (either BSD-based or System V-based in most cases). Apollo Domain was written in Pascal and was definitely not Unix-based. It had many unique and interesting features. In particular it had very sophisticated authentication and file sharing capabilities. A user could log in on any machine that was part of the domain (hence the name) and the user’s complete file system would be made available over the network on that hardware. Every system on the network shared a domain-level file system which removed the need for many Unix solutions like NFS. I had just accepted a job offer out of college from HP’s workstation division when HP bought Apollo. By the time I started, a couple months later, I was part of the HP side of the Apollo Systems Division.

In particular, many minicomputer vendors had some type of graphics and engineering workstation system built around their minicomputer product line, whether multi-user (where you’d have one minicomputer or even mainframe serving multiple bitmap or vector graphics terminals) or single-user (whether using a dedicated low-end minicomputer as a single-user system or using a new CPU design).

The Xerox Alto is what everyone cites as the start of the workstation trend, but it didn’t just beget the Xerox Star, the Lisp Machine, and the Lisa, it also led to the Three Rivers PERQ and CAD/CAE environments built on top of modular hardware from Data General and DEC, to the point where eventually DG, DEC, HP, and others released their own graphical workstations based on their minicomputer architectures.

All of these used vendor operating systems, not UNIX, and almost all emphasized the use of Pascal and FORTRAN for high-level application development. (The ones that didn’t had vendor languages too, like InterLISP and Mesa for Xerox.)

https://www.folklore.org/Puzzle.html

Looks like not, but would it actually have been shadier, or are we just used to individual users being fucked over?