Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

Without interest why would anyone loan money? Even the Islamic banking alternatives all just hide the interest charges.


That's not true. Islamic finance forbids indefinitely growing interest. Sharia finance agreements involve fixed fees or equity shares. Late penalties can be collected but must be donated, not profit. In all cases, the borrower never owes to the lender for the lender to keep more an a fixed amount determined at the strat.


Shares and Goodwill. You loan money for good well or share of an enterprise which comes with benefits and risks.


Usury is so delicious to many that it’s unfathomable to consider any other incentive comparing to it


What is unfathomable is how you have a functioning economy without easy access to loans at reasonable interest rates.


Try reading Graeber/Wengrow


The same way Stock Market works. Really, Debt benefits a tiny fraction of people involved in the market.


Isn't it just the same thing? You loan the company money and in return they give you a note that says you get a portion of the company and dividends?

Different mechanics, but stripping everything away, roughly the same.


No, because if the company loses money you lose too.

With Usury/Debt you pay for lending money and you pay whatever the enterprise makes money or not.


Debt is generally cheaper because lenders face lower risk. Because debtors hold priority claims on assets during liquidation and receive guaranteed fixed payments, they demand lower returns. In contrast, equity investors require higher returns for taking on higher risks.

Companies also often prefer debt because it doesn't dilute shareholders which issuing new shares would do.


Very strong assertions and true, to the extent that we accept Usury as acceptable.

While we are here, please also consider that Protection Rackets also provides similar benefits!


It is funny that usury is so evil in Islam at the same time Islam very clearly allows men to own and rape female slaves, "those whom your right hands possess" (ma malakat aymanukum).

Those slaves being raped must be so comforted by knowing that Islam forbids cash loans at reasonable interest rates.


What the heck this has to do with Islam?

Is Usury some kind of religious values for you?


Yes, it is forbidden by Islamic law so it is very much a religious issue for Muslims.


It is also forbidden for Jews and Christians. You sound like you have a personal issue with this topic.


Whataboutism


Maybe, but it is a very inconsistent moral code that considers cash loans at 5% interest evil while raping a slave is perfectly acceptable.


So equity instead of debt.


a stranger is asking you to risk $100k on his half-baked plan in exchange for nothing, and you say "sure go ahead take my money!"? no. it doesn't work like that in the islamic world.

as a borrower who's not allowed to compensate for your lenders' risk monetarily, your access to loans is severely restricted. Essentially you have to rely on your extended family. and instead of paying for the risk with interest payments, you have to pay with loyalty and subservience.

it restricts social mobility far more than the western model. it incentivizes clan structures. which incentivize cousin marriage.

power concentrates in the patriarchs of a million little family kingdoms. which causes all kinds of economic inefficiencies.

in the US, even if you're born without any family connections, as a healthy 20 year old you can find a job (hard work) that allows you to save $70k per year and invest it. when you're 30 you have $1M and a good credit history, you can easily leverage that to get a $2M loan at low interest rates, which allows you to start any kind of productive venture you want.

and you can do all this without owing your clan's patriarch access to e.g. your most profitable clients, or your daughters hand in marriage to his retarded son, or anything else he wants in exchange for his generosity.


“a stranger is asking you to risk $100k on his half-baked plan” is more less what YC is. And no debt involved.

You can correct yourself from there.


And in exchange YC demands a large percentage of ownership of the company. Completely different than a loan for 5% interest.


What are you basing this on? The current $.5M up front for 7% ownership deal?

https://www.ycombinator.com/deal/


If you don't understand the difference between a loan for 5% interest and 7 freaking percent of your entire company then you really don't understand finance at all.


The only person confused here is you. It is best you don’t take these topics personally and try to understand it from an objective point of view rather personal dogma.


Who is taking what personally?


Loaning money as per Islamic Law is a charitable act, not one of exploitation.


Nice to get a callback to previously acquired knowledge with what I assume is an arabizi (sp?) handle.

Islamic trade is certainly one of the best models out there but I think in many cases in practice it is still applied subversively.

It is not enough to ban mechanisms like usury, designed and intended to exploit.

One has to go after the very subversion of legitimate practices for illegitimate goals.


reasonable interest rates aren't exploitation. Business Loans serve a critical role in economic activity by putting free cash to more productive use.


All interest is usury in Islamic Law (and the laws before it such as Christianity and Judaism). There are ways to to put free cash into productive use without exploitation.


I understand and I disagree. Interest isn't always "exploitation". A 5% loan isn't exploitation and it is very stupid to ban such things.


I think it's easy to look around us to see why it makes complete sense to prohibit it.


If going by the very poor economic performance of Muslim countries I would say interest is a very good thing if limited to reasonable interest rates and fair bankruptcy laws.


Correlation vs causation (post WWI colonization comes to mind, that continues to this day). Historically, there was a period of time when there were no poor people left to take Zakat, everyone paid their share, and no usurious transactions permitted.


Historically, there was a period of time when there were no poor people left to take Zakat, everyone paid their share, and no usurious transactions permitted.

When was this?


During the time of Umar bin Abdul-Aziz.


This is worth treating carefully. There are sources like Ibn Kathir and al-Tabari writing centuries later which claimed that Zakat collectors would return with unspent funds because eligible recipients could not be found. Even if we take this at face value, that's a leap from there being no poor people left. Did it apply to the entire empire or only a few regions? How likely was the collector to actually find recipients if they existed in a given region? etc...


Point is to refute the claim the current situation in some Muslim countries is caused by Islam, instead of it being a direct consequence of colonialism.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: